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Blue Sky
31 Jul 2009 16:52
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I wonder if it would be possible to discuss the very deep and round methods of training a horse like Totilas in order to produce "a show trot", which is more "impressive" (good or bad) than a pure, airborn and floating "dressage stride".
If one agrees that dressage should absolutely be "beneficial to the horse" (gymnastic training to improve the whole horse, mind and body). Is this really necessary for such a lovely amenable horse to have been trained with the rollkur technique?
I think that we must be able to discuss this without attacking anyone individually here (even myself)! I wish to discuss the technique, not the individuals involved, who are certainly very talented and good at what they are doing.
My question is: why is it necessary to ride him deep and round? (emergency, stiffness problems in the neck etc.)
Or, is this to create this "show trot" that the public or some judges wish to see?
It seems that rollkur horses stiffens their back UP and therefore that the energy goes in the front legs and prevents the horse to move from the middle of his back.
The result is a higher knee action and a very active "elbow" ? The horses trained with these methods seem even to be very "active behind", but the sharp bend in the hock is rather happening in the air? What do other people think? I am sure we can all stay civilized and polite and preven ourselves from "shooting the messenger", while discussing this. ;)
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olivia
31 Jul 2009 22:12
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I am not clear where you get the impression from this site that Totilas was ridden using the rollkur technique. I saw no evidence of this?
My understanding is there is a big difference between working horses " Deep " and the rollkur technique. As I understand rollkur is when the horse works excessively overbent and deep in the neck. There is a big difference between working the horse in a deep outline and rollkur.
When a horse has been stood in the stable it is important to loosen him up similar way to an athlete doing stretching exercises. By working it slightly deep it allows the back muscles to also warm up and therefore work more effectively from the hind leg for the collected work. Without the back being loose the horse can not work the hind legs as effectively.
I think Totilas is a perfect example of a horse " moving from the middle of the back" the energy and movement in his front legs is his natural movement.
There are many horses with quite straight moving action ridden in "rollkur" and it doesn't make them have the expression and knee action this amazing horse has.
In conclusion this is probably one of the most talented dressage horses that has been competed to date. Most Grand Prix horses competing at this level are in their early teens. He is only 9yrs old and much of this work is through true natural ability (and training) which is why he makes it look so easy !!!
I think we should be inspired by this amazing horse.
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TinkerBell
01 Aug 2009 13:04
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Totilas is amazing, but I think the goal was not to discuss him or Edward personally, just the rollkur. People have so different and so passionate opinions about it. I have heard lots of different things about rollkur and it is the fact that for examlpe Anky was using it on her horses. I personally do not like any "tricks" or "gadgets" which force the horse to do things. I just do not like "forcing" part of it. What I was intrested about is whether anyone knows about a scientific data or research into impact on horse muscles and skeleton when trained in rollkur position? May be HorseHero's Gillian Higgins with her painted horse could give an insight?
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Pointer
01 Aug 2009 23:08
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If the object of post was to discuss rollkur why mention Totilas at all why not just post rollkur, I feel the original post is a delibarate attempt to criticise an amazing horse.
I watched all of his working in at Hickstead and not once did I see this horse in rollkur.
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Blue Sky
02 Aug 2009 11:08
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Yes, I understand your point. I do not wish in any way to attack the individuals here. They are definitively great, talented rider and horse. Both are outstanding. But, is this a "result of training" that follows the rules written down and in line with the "FEI dressage judges guidelines" (booklet can be bought at the FEI website) of marking the training? Maybe, maybe not? I think that there was many faults during the test that were "overlooked" maybe due to this very expressive way of going?
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An American in Copenhagen
02 Aug 2009 16:16
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Performances like Totila's are the reason I personally steer clear of the dressage competition ring. I am no expert but I personally don't care to see horses moving like that, particularly one with such talent. I think it does nothing to improve upon the horse's natural beauty or athleticism and I suspect it puts undue strain on their bodies and legs.
Just yesterday I finished reading "Tug of War", the book by Dr. Gerd Heuschmann. It's a well written, concise book and I learned a great deal. I can see why the book and it's author are so controversial but I think it's wonderful that someone with such a deep and wide knowledge base has come out so strongly in favour of the horse and classical riding and training methods in dressage.
I think Totilas' performance pretty well matched what was described in Dr. Heuschmann's book as a 'leg mover'. Given that Edward Gal has trained with Anky for six years I think it's fair to assume that he uses 'hand dominated' training methods at home. In his own words, he only rides the horse “more up” for competitions.
The result of hand dominated, Rollkur, hyperflexion, deep, or whatever you want to call it training is a horse who's front legs lift quite high but who's back legs are trailing out behind and who has no flexion of the haunches. The horse is not properly collected and performances by leg movers may be spectacular in some ways but it strays from the original goal of dressage.
I think it takes a trained eye and horse sensibility to appreciate a quiet, correct performance by a talented horse and rider. Unfortunately, more and more top competitors in every discipline are asking for increasingly unnatural performances from horses in order to stand out from the crowd and impress an audience that is not well educated in what a performance by a top horse and rider should look like. They want flash and action whether it's natural or not.
I come from a country with a long list of truly shameful top level horse competitions: Tennessee Walking Horse 'Big Lick' classes, Western Pleasure, AQHA and Arabian halter classes, Saddle Seat, etc. It took a shockingly short period of time for competitions originally designed to test the skills of talented horses and riders to evolve into something that is entirely about exaggeration and flash that have nothing whatsoever to do with the best interest of the horse. The consequences of top competitions changing in this way have been bad for both the horses and the horse community. I would hate to see dressage go down a similar road where it is slowly perverted into something that no longer represents it's original purpose or the best interest of the horse.
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Diana
03 Aug 2009 08:37
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Hi
What I am sure Edward meant was that he often rides in a small trot at home and does not push for much expression very often. It is so important for the dressage horse to not be ridden in a competition outline all the time, that wouldn't be very good for them. I have never ridden in Rollkur and wouldn't consider it beneficial but I did not see this horse ridden in rollkur position here.
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Olliebean
03 Aug 2009 09:33
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In his own words, he only rides the horse “more up” for competitions.
With all due respect I think you have taken this quote out of context.
For example, Gerd H. stretches horses down in light seat. To ride a test after working in this frame he would also, by definition, have to ride the horse 'more up' to perform a test.
The term 'more up' simply means that the horse, through the test, is ridden in the outline required for a test. Most riders, including classical trainers of old (Richard watjen to name but one..) stated that to ride the horse 'poll high, nose out' all of the rime would be damaging to the horse's back.
I also agree with the poster that said if this thread is simply and genuinely about rollkur then no names need to be mentioned.
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annielass
03 Aug 2009 14:07
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I wonder whether it is really necessary to start repeating a thread on this forum that was banned from the British Dressage forum? We can have another debate about 'rollkur' by all means (although I am not sure the possibilities have not already been exhausted) but bringing in examples of well known riders and horses where we have absolutely no idea of whether they are ridden with that method or not, seems inappropriate. Let's not drag this forum into the same kind of unpleasantness that the BD and the Horse and Hound forums have suffered from in the past.
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Pointer
03 Aug 2009 19:06
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Very well said Annilass
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Blue Sky
03 Aug 2009 19:18
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This post has been deleted!
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Fiona Price
03 Aug 2009 19:43
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I absolutely intend that forums on Horse Hero remain positive, educational, helpful and professional, unlike many others and to this end I read ALL forum entries even if that is extremely anal. It's fine to be contentious and provocative where this is helpful, but not for the sake of it or in repeated conversations about the same subjects. I suggest you have a look at the new editorial I have just posted on the judging of music in the Freestyle and apply your extensive dressage knowledge to this leading edge and, as yet, little discussed subject. Blue Sky, I known you are passionate about the subject of this particular thread (and in the best interests of the horse) but perhaps it's time to let it rest and write a book on it instead and get it out there in the main stream!?
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Daiquiri
03 Aug 2009 21:38
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"So, what do we do? Stay silent?"
We have heard it all before...the same people post and listen here as have been elsewhere. This subject has been done to death by you Blue Sky... LEAVE it .... we know your opinions by heart.
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Stressage
04 Aug 2009 08:54
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To be honest, I really don't think that's the answer.
First of all, it's not really fair to bring in what happens on other forums, because not everybody writes on all forums! The BD forum has been mentioned, but it seems to me that a lot of people writing on HorseHero are not British/do not live in the UK, so we wouldn't even have access to websites like BD. And HorseHero doesn't have anything to do with Horse&Hound, or BD - why cannot we treat it as a (semi-!)blank canvas? Please? For those of us who have never written anywhere else, at least.
Secondly, there are magazines (like the well-respected German St Georg) which write about rollkur and its effect virtually every month, and yet there are thousands of people who buy every issue without being 'bored' by the topic or thinking 'it's been done to death'. I feel the same; if you don't, just skip the threads about rollkur, but do not prevent people like me from reading more!
Finally, there ARE people who train classically and have success. There are riders and trainers out there competing at the highest levels who do not ride in rollkur, do not use draw reins, and whose horses truly are happy athletes. (Laura B springs to mind!) It CAN be done. It just takes longer. Some of these people also speak out against rollkur and training which is not classically correct. And thankfully, nobody seems to be 'bored to death' by what Klaus Balkenhol, or Dr Heuschmann have to say. Why should it be any different on here?
Dr Heuschmann's books and lectures, Klaus B's seminars and clinics are fab but, unfortunately, not everybody has the chance to go listen to them in person. I think in general, forums are such a wonderful way to exchange opinions. I do not know who BlueSky is and have never read him/her anywhere else; why should I miss out on this just because somebody else on this forum knows his/her opinions 'by heart'? I certainly don't.
If you don't want to write about it, then just leave this thread and write elesewhere. But preventing people from openly discussing controversial training methods is just wrong.
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Pointer
04 Aug 2009 10:02
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I dont know who Blue Sky is either (although have seen some of her posts on BD) and that is unimportant to me. I am happy to debate a training subject but not when a riders name is attached to it, if this thread had started by wanting a debate on rollkur in general I would have also been interested but not if it is to have a dig at a top or professional rider.
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Blue Sky
04 Aug 2009 10:43
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"The sport of dressage is a joy to watch at top level but it has its issues. Big-moving, flashy horses, for example, look impressive but does this mean they are going correctly? If you've got opinions or questions on this, or anything else to do with this increasingly popular discipline, post them here."
The "Horse Hero" team wrote this above. I just gave my opinion as they requested.
I was trying to start a discussion here about training methods.
As rollkur is now "accepted" and "recognised" as a good tool for people who are experts, why would it be a bad think to discuss it freely?
If a psychologist could see what is happening here, he/she would have a hell of an interesting time.
Sites offer "debate" facilities, forums and so on. Fiona does a marvellous job to offer information here. I respect this absolutely. What a great insight on training and people.
We can only applaude her work here and as I quoted above, we are, as the public, asked to comment, which I have done.
I think that it is fair to say that I did emphasise that only the TECHNIQUE IS criticised and I respect the talented people involved and their ability? (Re reading my posts without negative feelings, could be useful maybe).
I think that once we ask the public, which I am part of, their views and allow them to discuss a subject, one must be able to handle it well, as long as the "protagonists" (sorry English is not my mother tongue) behave well and are respectful with each others.
I received plenty of personal abuse because of my views.
This seems allowed as long as the people who abuse my person and my reputation are agreeing with the people in charge and the majority.
The result is that some people come on line to attack myself instead of giving views.
This is what makes it "uncomfortable" reading.
Someone was allowed to come and talk about "what I have done on other forums", but does he give any views on the training of horses relative to the use of modern methods?
I am most happy to retire and stop giving "views" if Fiona, who runs the forum asks me.
But maybe I misunderstood and it would be an idea to avoid asking people' opinions in the first place?
I am very impressed with the website and thank the whole team for their work. I hope people can read the posts again and see who is attacking who, and who is attacking methods, training systems etc. instead.
This big difference was taught to me as a child:
attacking "a subject" is different than attacking the people who wish to debate "the subject".
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Olliebean
04 Aug 2009 10:51
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Ollibean here comes and talk about "what I have done on other forums", but does he give any views on the training of horses relative to the use of modern methods?
Blue Sky, Please re-read the thread again. I have answered a poster talking about the phrase "more up" and talked about training.
At no point have I talked about what you have done on other forums so I am not sure where you got that from.
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Blue Sky
04 Aug 2009 11:03
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Thank you for answering and commenting here too.
So, what are your views on the way this horse is moving?
Do you think that he is a little bit too "showy" to be "pure dressage" or do you think that the way of going is the result of "good classical training" (follows the scales of training).
It was Annielass, who discuss what happened on other forums. No worry.
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Lucy penflow
04 Aug 2009 11:46
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This seems to be more about you and not training.
So will bring it back on track and pose a question to you Blue Sky about training.
If the nuchal ligament is stretched beyond it's elastic limits through the use of rollkur then how does this affect the level of throughness in the horse's transitions?
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Stressage
04 Aug 2009 11:52
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"I was trying to start a discussion here about training methods."
Yes, this is precisely what I thought too!
I don't personally think that rollkur is so widely 'accepted', though. I am lucky enough to work with a top trainer and she is a strenuous opponent of anything which is not 'classical' - she won't even accept draw reins anywhere on the barn! And I am even luckier to compete in an area where judges, at least at my (lowish) level, are quite old-fashioned and will punish severely horses who fall behind the vertical etc.
Personally, I cannot understand how extreme hyperflexion can help - I understand the point about stretching different muscles, but surely this is counterproductive if it's done when the horse is not relaxed, but training intensely? I mean, can it really be beneficial to do a diagonal of fifteen one-times in rollkur?
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