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When is it too early to start advanced dressage work?

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Mandeigh
17 Mar 2010 21:09

This discussion started on the latest video of Hannah Biggs riding her Spanish stallion Torri (entitled 'Torri learns flying changes with Hannah Biggs') and has now moved to the forum to broaden it and include more users:

DressageSpain 17 Mar 2010 Mandeigh, I agree with you that piaffe and lateral movements can be included in a basic way when the horses are younger. Shoulder in and leg yelding are great movements to help with the training of a young horse, as is half pass. I mean you don't need to half pass the entire width of the arena but a little is very helpful. By more advanced work, I am talking about the changes, beginning of canter pirouettes, a little piaffe. If you think aboout it like this, you have a horse wanting to get to GP, and you wait till 7 or 8 to get one change established, then the horse could be nearly 12 or 13 before one tempis are established, and then another year before they are in competition, so your horse is 13 before ready to begin its GP competition life. I am trained in the German system, so its not even so much the Spanish method, its just looking at the longer picture and developing the horses on so that they are beginning the basis of learning lines of changes and the canter pirouettes, piaffe and canter half pass at 5 1/2 - 6 years old (not strictly in that order and only to what each horse can do), so that you can really then take your time to establish it and it is not detremental if you need to take a step back. I am not talking about pushing the horses beyound what they can do and all horses are different, bu am talking about establishing the beginnings sooner to take the time to build them up. I agree the UK tests are a little back to front but be thankful you ahve the different levels, We have in Spain, 4yrs, 5 yrs, 6 yrs, Small Tour, Big Tour THATS IT!! It's so hard and most of my horses take a break between 6yrs and Small Tour as I refuse to push them before they are ready.

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Mandeigh 15 Mar 2010 Hi Dressage Spain, I guess it depends what you class as advanced work? Lateral work? Piaffe? Long periods of canter? I have no problem with horses working with piaffe early on, but I know some folk would consider shoulder in to be quite advanced and certainly the British dressage tests, I feel, are a bit weird. I look on lateral work as a 'basic' yet it doesn't appear till later Elementary, however first level extensions are included in Novice, but way before collection...all seems a bit back to front. What I don't particularly care for are horses being worked beyond their physical (or mental) capabilities, ie worked too long in a frame or pace or forced into an out line without building the musculature of the rest of the body required to maintain that outline. Not sure what the dressage test structure is like in Spain?

DressageSpain
17 Mar 2010 23:08
 Great Mandeigh! Its always so interesting to know what other people do and how they do it.

I would just like to say that my comment is in no way a critism of Hannah and Torri.

It would be interesting to hear everyone else's views on training scales. Is it acceptable to begin advanced work at 5/6. Is it acceptable to wait? Or is the answer simply in the ability of the horse and rider to progress on.

I see it from both sides, horses that are clearly being pushed to far to quick and are then unable to sustain this to Small Tour/Big Tour, and then the horses where the rider is being over cautious and a chance is missed to get the horse to the highest level before age 13/14.
Mandeigh
17 Mar 2010 23:35
 "Great Mandeigh! Its always so interesting to know what other people do and how they do it.

I would just like to say that my comment is in no way a critism of Hannah and Torri.

It would be interesting to hear everyone else's views on training scales. Is it acceptable to begin advanced work at 5/6. Is it acceptable to wait? Or is the answer simply in the ability of the horse and rider to progress on.

I see it from both sides, horses that are clearly being pushed to far to quick and are then unable to sustain this to Small Tour/Big Tour, and then the horses where the rider is being over cautious and a chance is missed to get the horse to the highest level before age 13/14. "

I like that Hannah is giving Torri time to 'emotionally' grow, I imagine that anything less than a sensitive and tactful approach and Torri could be a real handful.

So in Spain the level of test is based only on the horses age? Did I pick that up right?

In the UK I find the tests are really weighted to the lower levels.....I can understand a walk/trot test for a youngster starting out as canter work can really only come when the trot is established, which is partly why I just don't get prelim tests at all, especially when novice tests may have to show the horse a bit more established, but I've seen many judges mark prelim and novice exactly the same.....I certainly think there should be some lateral work in novice.
DressageSpain
18 Mar 2010 12:26
 I agree. To be honest you don't see many spanish horses misbehaving, they are on the whole fairly well behaved compared to the warmbloods.

Yes you got it right, there are only the classes available for the age of horse from 4 - 6, then it jumps straight to Small Tour (there are no national level affiliated one day competitions, they are all 2 or 3 days). So its a massive struggle to get your horses up to the level quick enough, and you are completely stuffed if your horse is a slow developer or worse still is injured.

They did start to open up the young rider classes (which go up the same levels as FEI) but it seems to be that no one goes in them really and if you do, its almost seen as there is something wrong with your horse to not be up to the level, so the marks go a bit lower. You also see the same panel of judges at the competitions, just changed around. I think there is a need for an injection of new blood to compliment the existing judges.

The UK system, personally, I feel is a slightly better system but there are too many tests and too much ability for people to stay in Prelim, and therefore you then get "professional prelimers", who just go around pot hunting. I also feel it a ridiculous situation where a GP rider cannot ride a new young horse at a lower level to get it going. In Spain, you see rider ranking and you cannot move a horse/rider combination down a level but if an Olympic rider gets a new mount, they can begin at the start, which is only fair.

I think what I am trying to say, is that there are good and bad points to both systems!

But it does get back to the ability of the horses to move along when they are younger. I agree with you, that the novice test should perhaps have some minor lateral work. If the horse can push on at medium trot, why can it not do a shoulder in or leg yield?

peaches
22 Mar 2010 16:39
 Hi, Just wanted to add my feelings on the subject of 'lateral work' and the young horse.

I totally agree that novice tests in the UK should have some 'easy' leg yields in them; they could be introduced as 'advanced novice' tests. We are not asking for our young horses to be doing full blown half passes, just moving away from the leg for a few strides when asked.

I get very annoyed when I hear people talk about leg yields as if they are an advanced movement. I begin leg yielding movements as soon as the horse accepts the contact, starts and stops when asked and is swinging along in a good rhythm and balance. The young horse must learn right from the start that the leg doesn't only mean go forwards but has other meanings, you see so many people wait until the horse is about 5 or 6 then start to teach them to move sideways. The horse is bigger and stronger by then and you can end up with more of argument from them.

A young pupil of mine come up to me and asked when should she take her new young horse out for a hack. The horse is only just four. He goes when asked, doesn't stop when asked and definitely doesn't yeild to the leg. I asked her if she would take a car out that had no steering or brakes? Her answer was of course no!

I prefer that a young horse is respectful to the aids, moves sideways off the leg when asked and has brakes. Yeilding to the leg has saved me many times when I have been riding along a country road and a speeding car passes too close, it's nice to know that you can move your horse in a couple of feet if needed. A horse respectful to the leg is added insurance!

Teaching a young horse leg yeiding can only enhance their performance by making them more supple and helping them to engage from behind.
 

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