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bocelli
30 Aug 2010 13:50
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Hi, I wrote a thread at the beginning of this year, about my 13yo Hanoverian big boy flying changes. When I bought him he could do them but most times he changed fore first then hind. My first trainer not only did not improve that, on top the horse started to "buck" at the flying change. I found a new rider and a new trainer for him, he quitted the bucking stuff. Then the girl left the yard and another chap is riding the horse, the trainer is the same (the same of the girl, not the first one obviously). The horse has improved a lot, now most of changes left to right are correct, and so are a few of right to left changes.
I wonder how it is that a horse that is supple (his lateral work is very good), well ridden, with a good trainer, cannot get his flying changes correct all the time.What do you think? Are there any physical conditions that could be the cause of it?
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bocelli
30 Aug 2010 14:22
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Uuppps! Maybe I should have posted this in the Training section?
I found this video of my horse so you can see what its flying changes were, that is two years ago, I was riding him:
http://www.facebook.com/smacariovives?v=app_2392950137#!/video/video.php?v=100523499960775
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DressageSpain
30 Aug 2010 16:12
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Well, it is quite normal for a horse to have one side that is better than the other. Horses are like humans in that they are, in a sense, left or right handed.
But the other thing that you need to really assess carefully is the riders aids when asking for the change. Is the rider much stronger on one side than the other? Are you asking evenly on either side? Remember that to ask for a change from right to left lead, you will need to have your left leg with a contact to the horse AND ask for the change with your right leg by moving it backwards along the horse.
The other question you need to assess is - are you changing to flexion BEFORE the horse has time to change?
If you think about the flying change this way - that the riders leg needs to ask for the horses hind leg to change first, then the front leg, THEN lastly the flexion.
If you are doing something differently on one side than the other, then that could be the answer to why the horse changes one side better than the other. It is a sensitive movement and the horse may not acutally be able to hange the front leg as he might be being blocked by the rider in some way.
I also believe that the old saying "too many cooks spoil the broth" could be applying here. There are at least 4 people you ahve mentioned been working on this horses changes. Perhaps he is getting a bit confused with the different aids. Perhaps you are focusing very hard on the changes and perhaps you need to do NO changes for a while, go do something else for a few weeks and come back to it. Sometimes you will be surprised at how well that can work.
The other answer is that, maybe he has a niggle in his back somewhere that causes pain but is unlikely if he is ok and even when doing everything else.
By the way, your video link does not work.
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bocelli
30 Aug 2010 19:31
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DressageinSpain,
Maybe you are rigth about "too many cooks spoil the broth".
But I have a reason for that: I bought my horse because I wanted to progress in dressage, he is a very well schooled, very well behaved horse, only too big. He was the best horse I could afford given my budget, his price was according his size and his problems with flying changes. But as I was not an expert and I wished to keep him well schooled, for that reason I hired the first trainer, to ride him and to teach me. But it was a great disappointment, he didn't ride the horse as agreed (some days I would arrive to the yard being told the horse had been ridden the three previous days when in fact he had not even been out!) As my horse became too much for me to handle I found the girl which could ride him, with the aid of the best trainer I could find, a real pro. When she left I found another expert rider. That is four riders, only me being the constant, and the problem remains the same with the flying changes, he has improved a lot in every other aspect since then. I do not try flying changes myself now, only his rider under supervision of the trainer.
Well, let's see if I can post the videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhayNp7isv8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6InMabfjR8
The first one is me, the other one is the firt rider/trainer, I don't have recent videos.
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peaches
31 Aug 2010 12:17
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Hi,
Mmmm... Flying changes, these are a real specialist area really, espcially when you have got some problems.
I had a horse with similar probs once. Even experienced people were perflexed by his inability to change correctly left to right. He would hump up or buck everytime I asked for a change. So at least something was happening, far better than them just ignoring you. At least this tells you they are trying to do the change correctly. The humping up or bucking is their way of trying to comply with your wishes and that's the only way they can perform the change 'in thier mind'.
To cut it short, I tried everything I could think of, I felt my horse was supple for his age and stage, all his other work was good. So I got someone to video him closely behind in all his work, only from behind.
On close scrutiny, he was favouring his left hind leg to carry his weight, his right hind was out to the right a little only in some of his work, but not all the time, I couldn't even feel it, it was so slight. So I stopped doing changes for a month and concentrated on things like quarters in and out on cirles, trot and canter, shoulder in in canter and trot, lots counter canter, making sure that I was working more on the right hind coming underneath him or to the left than the other way round. In other words, lots of suppling exercises.
Also, walk to canter canter to walk with his rt hind to the left a little.
As Dressageinspain said, don't block him in front when you come to do changes again, better to keep him straight in his head and neck, it's amazing the influence we have on the changes when we over flex them before the change - often to the detriment.
You could just find like I did, it's just a stiffness in his body and he's not using his hind legs equally because of that.
Trainers often just sit on the sidelines in a judges box or stand in the middle, they need to get up and look behind the horse more often when there's a problem.
When I resumed changes, out of every 5 changes I only had one incorrect one. So I knew I was on the right road at last. Now it's very rare that he humps or bucks in his changes left to right. But I know it will be ongoing 'work in progress' for some time.
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Horse Hero Guru
31 Aug 2010 21:24
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Hi Bocelli
I watched your two videos with interest and agree with the advice you have already been given about how to achieve flying changes. My comments are related more to what I saw in the videos.
Conformation-wise, your horse is definitely stronger in front than he is behind, and also seems to favour the left hind leg to his right. He also carries his tail very much to one side, indicating that he is somewhat one sided. This is going to make it harder for him to work through from behind. I presume that you have had his back checked thoroughly. If so, I would concentrate on building up the muscles in his quarters making it easier for him to work from behind. I would suggest that you horse would benefit from lots of gentle hill work and gridwork to help develop strength and power in his quarters so that he can push himself forward rather than pull himself from the front.
It is also apparent that you and the second rider have completely different styles of riding, which is going to lead to confusion – one rider is strong and, to my mind at least is keeping the horse more over bent than I would like, and appears to be pulling the horse back to the shape he wants rather than working him forward in to it. When you are riding him he is much longer and less stable in his carriage. The changes in riding style are not going to help your horse sort out exactly what he is being asked to do with his legs, although he doe appear to be willing to try to do what is asked. I am sure that with just one rider or at least with two riders working in the same way he will learn far more easily than when he is being asked in such different ways.
Having said so much that could be taken as critical, I do think he is a lovely horse and I am sure that with effort you will help him to sort out his problems.
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DressageSpain
01 Sep 2010 07:12
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Bocelli,
I also watched the videos with interest and have to ask.
Can you post a video of your horse doing a simple thing - canter, collection, canter then canter, collection, walk, canter.
The flying changes are first and foremost not working because there is ZERO collection before you ask for the change. They will never work unless your horse has the ability to SIT on his hindquarters. Think of your horse a bit like a motorbike. When you want to do a collected movement, he needs to bring his front end up and his backend down. A bit like a motorbike doing a wheely. And if you think about how a bike rider would achieve this.... he would need to put his weight back in the saddle.
I also agree that the other trainer has a much stronger riding style which is detremental to the flying change, My trainer is twice my size and never asks for a change on my horses, he only ever helps with the priouettes when on the horses back.
But all in all, there is way too much speed being used in the 2 videos, and speed will not get you a correct and energetic UPHILL flying change. There is also too much hanging onto the mouth and not even leg and seat in the change. Even just a small amount will block a change as I said before.
Think about many many many transistions of all kinds, walk - trot - walk, trot - collect - trot, canter, collect, canter, collect - walk. Use your weight and not your reins. Think of this as a religion, for us dressage riders it is!
Your next step will then be teaching the horse some more lateral movements in canter - quarters in on a circle, half pass etc to combine with your transistions. You simply need to strengthen the horses hindquarters and get him sitting more. From the floor, you could try strapping his hind quarters. If you are meeting peaches, I'm pretty sure she would know this and show you how to do it, it works wonders!
All in all, things like this can be rectified if you strip everything away and start from the bottom doing it the correct way.
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bocelli
01 Sep 2010 08:07
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Many thanks for all your advice!!! I think we might be on the right track now!
My video was shot two years ago, I had the horse for one month at the time. Since then I haven't tried the flying changes again, I just ride him in classes twice a week to improve myself. The man who rides him now does a lot of lateral work with him (shoulder in, haunch in, half pass) and also flying changes which now are much more smooth, not throwing the bump up any more, and almost perfect on one side but on the other he keeps lagging behind most of times.
HHG, I wouldn't have thought that my horse is stronger in front, I knew something was wrong but everybody tells me he has lots of power in the hind! I cannot use gridwork (I supposse that means pole work) because the horse is terrified of jumps. I got him used to cavaletti work last spring though (on the lunge), would that help?
The good thing is that he tries all the time, he's just a very nice boy, it's only us which are making things confusing for him all the time.
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bocelli
01 Sep 2010 08:19
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DressageinSpain, I only have one videos of the former rider, I will try to have one of the actual one.
What is "strapping the legs"??
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DressageSpain
01 Sep 2010 11:15
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"DressageinSpain, I only have one videos of the former rider, I will try to have one of the actual one.
What is "strapping the legs"??
"
Its an old fashioned method of improving muscle tone. If you look at the laura B video of grooming, they show something similar. I use a leather pad and tap the muscles with it. Its th same kind of principle as the Power plate for humans.
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bocelli
01 Sep 2010 22:07
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Well, I found one more video, the horse is not being ridden in it so the gaits should come naturally, I think:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIBzX0rGxdg&feature=fvsr
This is an old one two, his first Christmas here in Spain.
Well, I have a lot of work to do know, firs to convince my vet to send me a physioterapyst or whatever than can accurately diagnose my horse. Second, to develop with the aid the his physio and his findings, the best rutine for the horse. Third, I must convince the rider, and the trainer of the rider, all of them being professionals for many years (and very good they are only a little set in their ways, I would say) I am learning so slowly, I really try to attend meetings, i join clinis and courses ; each time I have the impression that thre were a lot of thins I was doing wrong. Others I was doing correctly just by pure change, and some other, I regret to say, i Knew they were wrong but I found no support in people surraounding me, genearally they think that if the horse can walk, trot and canter then it is not lame. But I know that there much more than simply that, is about stratightness, is about boths parts of the body working equal for those exercises they were taught.
I am a very stubborn person mydself, I know tha horse is no working well and neow i have a glimpse of what may it entail to re-educate this horse. NOw. I'm not scared of hard work, mabe others are, not me becasue I have nothing to lose. And if we are rigt, and we were agle to correct the febble poins in gthis horse, he would be much superior in te future, That's what dressage's is about, about making the most of your otherwsie normal hore.
Lets hope we are in the right track, because it is going to cost of money, but also because Im going to find fierce prosecution. Amen.
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Horse Hero Guru
01 Sep 2010 22:43
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I had no intention of criticizing your horse, and perhaps should have phrased my description better. He has a lovely deep barrel, but his length of neck mean that he looks as though he is working uphill when in fact he is actually working from those lovely shoulders with the back legs following rather than pushing him forward. When he is playing in your latest video (which I loved- he was having such fun) he seems to prefer to buck and turn rather than rearing up and spinning on his hind legs. He may well be powerful behind, but he is happier to work from the front end.
By grid work I do not mean jumping, just using lines of carefully placed trotting poles that will help him to concentrate on where all four of his feet are. Used properly trotting pole will help any horse to move more rhythmically and really use themselves without putting undue strain on any part of their body whether they are working on the lunge or under saddle.
And yes, riding and training a horse is hard work and takes time, but it should be enjoyable for both of you. After all, a competitive test only takes a few minutes, whilst the preparation can take years, and if you don’t enjoy those years, rejoicing in every little improvement along the way, you are not going to have much fun!
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bocelli
02 Sep 2010 09:09
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HHG, I wrote my message above past night when I was half asleep, so please excuse me if it sounded as I thought you were critizicing my horse.
What I was trying to say, is that I know that my horse is not working as he should, according to everything I have learned about dressage (that is not much), but when I tell this to people around me, they tell me that this is nonsense, because the horse is sound and well schooled, and that I should not complain. Yet I know he can improve, and this does not mean that he should win competitions or be a dressage star, he will never be. I mean just that, that he can be improved and that means looking at him impartially and identifying any problems or feeble points, and then focus the work on those.
Your comments, and those of peaches and DressageSpain, are very very helpful and most welcome, that is the kind of advice I needed.
I am so sorry I explained things so badly...
Thank you all!!
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