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Amanda2
29 Oct 2009 19:26
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I have a lovely haflinger who has gone from under nurished in April(when I purchased her) to overweight now ! We have very good grass and hallage and I guess this is the problem.
She has been in during day with a small hay net and out at night. This is about to change to from out in the day (8 hours) and in at night. she gets ridden about 3 to 4 times a week.
I have read lots and have picked up they need 2.5% of thier body weight but have some questions, can anyone help ?
Firstly is it 2.5% of their current (overweight) weight or of the weight they should be ?
then if they she is out in the day how do I guess how much she has eaten therfore how much does she need at night ? would it be 2/3rd for example ?
and then how on does her feed fit into all of this. ???
she has a scoop of hi fi and a gut balancer (she is windy - not seen much difference yet) and oil and garlic.
Sorry its such a long question. although i am middle age she is my first pony and I really want to get it right for her - I dont know how the pound creept on !!
thank you
Amanda
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Horse Hero Guru
29 Oct 2009 22:58
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Hi Amanda 2
I think I can see where the excess weight has come from. A horse should eat about 2% of their current bodyweight each day to maintain condition – that extra half a percent means that your horse is definitely getting too much. If you are trying to drop weight then 1.75% should be the amount to feed. This is the total weight of all her feed – hay, grass, hard feed, carrots, polos – everything!
As you say it is very difficult to work out how much they have eaten when at grass particularly as this depends on the amount of grass they are on, how good it is (probably not as good at this time of year) and how much of their time in the field they spend eating. What I normally do is to assume that, if she is out for 8 hours of 24 then she has eaten 1/3 of her daily feed in that time. Since she will be stabled for quite a while and haylage is heavy I would make sure that she has to work at her feed in the stable putting it in a small mesh haynet (or even 2, one inside the other). That way she will not be standing around with nothing to eat for longish periods of time.
You don’t say how big your feed scoop is, but actually weigh how much feed it holds so that you can work out her diet accurately. You need to be sure that you are feeding her the recommended amount of hi fi or you may need to add a supplement to ensure she is getting al her vitamins and minerals – although the feed balancer should be providing these. The wind problem may well be from the haylage she is having – it tends to be more acidic than hay or grass so can lead to problems with the gut. Horses are not designed to live on rich diets and good cattle grass and good haylage can prove too much for them.
I would suggest that you cu her food back to 1.75% as described above then monitor how she is losing weight – the easiest way is to use a weighband about once a week or fortnight. If the weight is not coming off then cut the food down still more and if she is losing weight too fast then add a bit. Condition scoring is a better guide to how she is actually looking, but changes take time to be noticeable – especially when there is a fluffy winter coat to see through!
I do sympathise though – I don’t know how those extra pounds crept on me either!
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Amanda2
30 Oct 2009 16:56
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Thank you I think I am nearly there ! Can I check you agree ?
if she weighs (538k) I have used a tape
she needs 9.38K total ? 2/3rds of this is in so that is a total of 6.25K of feed ? = 13.71bs (that seems a lot !?)
to be made up of her haylage(I am going to buy a weight thing) and her feed ( do you actually physically measure the weight of feed ? )
I tried the two haynets today and she didnt finish it all so that was good - she also was not tearing at it as much as a small holed one.
I have been on line and there seem to be lots of conditioning scores is there any particular one you would recommend.
Thank you for your help. I really appreciate it .
Amanda
ps. I think the extra pounds is something we all share that feeling of. lol
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Horse Hero Guru
30 Oct 2009 18:50
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Your maths is fine. Weight wise (after a bit of research) she should be 700-1200 lb in weight depending on her height (13hh to 14.3hh) so you can work out how much she needs to lose.
The work you are doing with her definitely counts as light work, but you do not say if you are feeding Hi-fi original or one of the ones designed for the more rotund equine. I would probably start by feed about 3lb of the good doer (to make sure she gets all the vitamins etc) or 2lb of the original. I think I would chose the good doer, especially if your haylage is good quality. That will leave you to feed 10 to 11lb of haylage. That is equivalent to about 1/5 of a small bale of hay. Your haylage weighs more than hay by volume as it has a higher moisture content but at these levels you are still feeding sufficient fibre. Using the smaller holes will make sure that her net lasts all night. The important thing to do is to weigh the haylage, don’t guess – use a spring balance and fill nets accordingly. Once you have weighed one of your scoops of Hi-fi you will know how many scoops to feed
As you say, there are masses of condition scoring charts around – probably the easiest to use is the one issued by the British Horse Society, which comes with photos as well as drawings. On a five point scale I would aim for a score of 2.5 to 3 depending on what work the horse is doing.
Good luck
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DressageSpain
31 Oct 2009 09:02
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I can fully sympathise with this problem. I have 3 good doers and feed is weighed out to the gram now (not something going down well at my weight watchers boot camp!!!). I am constantly out with a weigh tape and weighing out feed and hay.
One thing I will ask, how does everyone else cope with the fact it doesn't go down well. I have tried to be fair and have reduced the amount slowly (in a hope they wouldn't notice!), and they weren't overweight as such, its just one of my horses grew 15cm in 2 years, so needed the hay, so it was a bit of hay belly. The other one needs to lose a little weight as it would better for a tendon issue.
Now the one who grew so much is 6 and nearly finished growing, he needs a lot less, but life revolves around his tummy. I have never seen horses love their food so much, and I guess thats better than the other way around. But I don't half get some complaining, door kicking and neighing about it.
I can't put hay into haynets, as he kicks the nets when it doesn't come out fast enough, so it gets weighed into baskets and divided up during the day into smaller amounts which they eat from a hay bar. They all eat like gannits till its gone and then tut that they have no more.
Its a never ending struggle and they have a good knack of making me feel really mean!! I hope that they will just get useed to it over time, but its not looking good for me!
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Amanda2
31 Oct 2009 14:20
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Thanks. I am going armed with my scales today, have used measuring tape and she is coming in at 538K so a fair bit to lose over the winter. She has had two teeth out wed so have been told to not put a bite in for 10 days !! what a pain lol. I got Hi- fi lite as opposed to the original today before i read your reply. do you think this will be ok? As for not liking the new weighing me - its not her that I am worried about I think the people on the yard think Ive gone mad. But when I have a very good looking pony it will all be worth it. I'll let you know how we do over the next few weeks.
thanks again
Amanda
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Horse Hero Guru
31 Oct 2009 18:49
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Hi-fi lite is fine – feed at same rate as good doer.
And if people laugh at you, think of all the advantages of a diet: cheaper feed bills, a fitter pony who can work longer, faster and more easily, a greatly reduced risk of laminitis, joint problems, breathing problems, hoof problems …
Anyone who feeds their horse without knowing how much they are giving is completely silly - you don’t prepare your own meals by guess work (unless you buy ready meals) and you shouldn’t do so for your horse. Once you know what your scoop holds it becomes easy!
Good luck - and do let us know how the weight loss going
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Amanda2
15 Nov 2009 16:05
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well we are two weeks down the line and another question please ! On average what do you think the weight drop should be ?? she is now 525 which seems quite a drop (unless I measured her wrong last time).
I know she has lost a bit as her rugs are a little lose.
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Horse Hero Guru
15 Nov 2009 17:29
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Congatulations!
If you have ever been on a diet yourself you will know that the weight comes off easily at first – it gets harder after the first few weeks. So long as your mare is happy and healthy I wouldn’t worry too much about the rate of weight loss – but if you feel she is losing weight too fast then just up her haylage a small amount.
Weighbands are not an accurate way of measuring a horse – you wouldn’t think of estimating your own weight from your waist measurement! Where you place it makes a big difference to the measurement. It should be around the heartline which runs from just behind the front legs and around behind the withers. However, even so it is only about 90% accurate.
You are just monitoring loss, so try and find a convenient place just behind the front legs and use the same spot each time so that you can measure weight loss. Is there a convenient mark on her coat or something that you can use to mark the spot! And of course the reading will depend on whether your mare has her head up or down, has just been working etc.
If you want to be more accurate method there are lots of formulae you can use:
If you are working in inches then multiply your horse’s heartline and length (from point of shoulder to point of hip) then divide the answer by 300 add 50 and that is supposed to give weight in pounds
Another formula uses centimetrers and then heartline squared multiplied by body length divided by 11,877 to give weight in kilograms.
All of these are just estimates – and anyway you do not know what her ideal weight is – so condition scoring is the way to go. Are her shoulder well defined? Can you feel her hip bones? Can you feel her ribs yet? Ideally you should just be able to see them when she turns.
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Amanda2
15 Nov 2009 18:35
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Its so complicated !! but I am weighing all of her nets and food. From the info you sent me and my research I think she needs t0 be about 450k.
I printed the conditioning score you suggested and have taken photos(dated) in the same positions. I dug out some pics of when I first purchased her too.
I think I have put her at conditioning score 4 last time - but thank you for the prompt I forgot to do it today. Initally she was very grumpy but we have come to an understanding lol !! Even though she did try and bite my bum when I was measuring her today !!
If you could bear too look at them I could email you my pics for your opinion - but I do understand its also about if you can feel her ribs. I will check this out again tomorrow and get some better pics. She had her head down today when I took them - in comparison to up last time .
Although Ive got a bit preoccupied with all this at least she is getting the correct amount now and with the help of winter she should look good for the summer. !!
Thanks for your help and support it has been so useful and supportive
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Horse Hero Guru
15 Nov 2009 23:11
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Amanda, send the photos to info@horsehero.com and Fiona will forward them to me and I will tell you what I think (if I can find my glasses to see them of course!)
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Amanda2
16 Nov 2009 19:33
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Thank you. They are on the way !!!
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Horse Hero Guru
16 Nov 2009 21:56
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Thanks for the photos Amanda – you have a lovely pony.
Looking at the photos I can see that there is quite a bit of fluctuation in condition scores, but your pony has also matured as well in the time you have had her.
The April 09 photos are a bit difficult to judge from as she is resting her back foot, which means that her rump is crooked and makes her hip bone look prominent and her mane is hiding her neck. She does however look as though she is probably lighter than she should be, but that could also be due to lack of muscle.
She is definitely over weight in the pictures on 1 November. From the photos I would put her easily at a 4 out of 5. My reasons for doing so are (apart from a large grass belly):
Her rump has a gutter down it and the tail head– is sunk in to the fat.
Her shoulders just run in to her body – there is no definition of the muscle.
The neck is cresty so the withers are just a continuation of the neck.
In the most recent photos she has obviously lost weight and the grass belly is going, but there is still more to come off.
Her rump has more shape to it and the gutter is going and the tail head is now beginning to show.
Her shoulders are beginning to get some definition.
Her neck is still quite cresty.
She does seem to be in better condition in the later photos – there is a lovely sheen to her coat.
I tend to be hands on in my condition scoring and appreciate that haflingers are sturdy animals and should be well muscled, but even so you should be able to feel her hipbone and ribs easily. They should have strong necks, and a proud carriage, but that shouldn’t be confused with a fat neck where the arch is made up of fat rather than muscle. The bones of the neck run from the poll to the middle of her shoulders (just above the line of her clip) with muscle above them and fat above that. If you look at the recent photo of her neck you can see the muscle in the neck and then the fat above that. Hopefully the crest of her neck has become a little softer now.
I would say that her condition score is now between 3.5 and 4, and that you should be aiming for at most 3. I don’t know what work you do with her, but if you are jumping or doing fast work the ideal score is just below 3, as that will provide her with more energy.
One other comment is about your numnah – it seems to be down tight on her withers. When you put it on it should be pulled up into the gullet of the saddle as otherwise it puts pressure on her numnah and can rub her or hurt. It also looks to be a little short – the end comes under the saddle so there is going to be a ridge on her back.
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Amanda2
16 Nov 2009 23:21
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I can't thank you enough for your constructive, honest and very helpfully comments. It was grt that you could see a difference in her and you hav inspired me to keep up the work. (my friends think I am mad taking pictures of her but it was grt to get your opinion)I even rode in the wet and dark to make sure she gets the exercise over he last two weeks!! My son enjoys jumping her and she has a fab jump so she gets a real mixture of work, not much hacking tho. I will let you know how we are getting on in a few weeks if that's ok. Thanks again. Amanda
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em901
19 Nov 2009 18:34
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Hi there, I hope you don't mind me hi-jacking your thread but i have been following this particular one with interest. I have a very good idea of how much i feed my show jumper and have been using the method that you have covered in this thread but my sister's pony is another matter. I would say she is in light work at the moment and hasn't really been worked regularly until a few weeks ago for a good two years.
My main concern is her crest - it is solid and appears to be getting harder and bigger - am i correct in assuming this is a build up of proteins? We let her out on loan at about this time last year and got her back in may of this year - she came back to us very thin and completely out of condition but her crest remained. We feel that we have improved her general body condition and with the work that she is doing now her muscle defintion is returning too.
I suppose what I am asking is what should we be doing/feeding to help reduce this crest but still provide her with the energy she needs to do the increasing level of work that she is being asked to do now?
The grass she is on is of good condition and there is plenty of it. She had a very mild bout of laminitis about 5 years ago but we have learnt to monitor her closely and have prevented any sign of laminitis since then.
I would really appreciate any help/advice that anyone can offer as she is a super pony who we would love to show off again but don't feel we can with this cresty issue!!
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Horse Hero Guru
19 Nov 2009 20:58
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It is difficult to say anything useful about your pony’s neck without more information.
What breed or type is she? Her basic conformation may be of having a short and thicker neck than a swan-like blood pony. Exercise and correct feeding can change many things, but if she is a cob-type she is still going to be a cob-type, albeit a fitter and healthier one.
What is her weight and condition score at the moment? It is unusual for a pony to carry excess weight on just one part of her body. Can you see/feel her ribs and hipbones? Does she have a grass belly as well?
How old is she and what work is she doing – by light work I would say up to an hour’s work five times a week. If she is a native pony type then she is more than capable of doing twice that on a diet of grass or hay apart from (possibly) a vitamin supplement.
What feed is she getting other than grass? How are you monitoring her condition with regard to the laminitis problem?
I have never heard of protein build up in a specific part of the body – a cresty neck is either caused by over developed muscle or by fat. It is just the same as with humans – yes, I know that my big bum is caused by being generally overweight, even if I can stand up tall and breathe in so that the rest doesn’t look too bad in the mirror!
I will be happy to try to help if you can provide some more information – and try to be brutally honest about your sister’s pony’s general condition since that is the only way you can start to solve the issue
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Amanda2
20 Nov 2009 20:18
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Hi
glad other people are finding this thread useful.
Guess what she is looking even trimmer this week and still losing the weight !!! She has loads more energy ( which she is also using to be a bit of a madam!) but lovely to see her looking good and not getting all hot with just a little bit of work. I will do the offical pics and weigh in next week !!
Amanda
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em901
20 Nov 2009 21:24
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Right i shall try...
We've had her since she was 6 and this crest has developed in the last couple of years (she is 13 now)- she's not a cobby type nor a native breed but i wouldn't say she was a slight breed either. She is 14.2hh and her ribs and hip bones are visible but not prominent. I wouldn't say she has a grass belly as we've been careful not to let her over indulge herself whilst still trying to get the weight back on her.
She is doing up to an hours work roughly three times a week - weather permitting - (we aren't allowed to ride when it is too wet and the hacking where we are is pretty pants) which we have built up to fairly slowly and is on a small amount of balancer only as a supplement to her hay/grass diet. To me her crest doesn't look like over developed muscle but rather "pockets" of some form of build up with the largest "pocket" being at the base of her neck.
With regards to the laminitis we have avoided it occuring again by restricting her grazing heavily during the spring and gradually allowing her more freedom through the summer and into autumn - she builds up to 8/9 hours out during the winter. We don't let her get passed the initial "fat" stage of laminitis so don't really have to monitor her feet etc...
I would say her condition score at present would be roughly around the 3.5-4 mark discounting her neck...
This is why it is puzzling me so much - i have done my BHS stages and NVQs in horse management and know that although i have these there is no substitute for experience which is why I would appreciate any advice...
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Horse Hero Guru
20 Nov 2009 23:35
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Well done Amanda – and I’m sorry your pony has decided to use the extra energy and fitness to be a madam. Just think though she has more energy because she is no longer carrying around so much harmful fat all the time. I bet the people in your yard are not laughing at you anymore now they can see the results!
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Horse Hero Guru
21 Nov 2009 00:16
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OK Em, I’m sorry to say, but it sounds like the cresty neck is fat. The pockets of build up are just that – lumps of fat. If your pony is at 3.5 to 4 she is overweight. The ideal for a working horse is 2.5 to 3.
I know that show horses are kept fatter than that but carrying too much weight is just putting undue strain on her body, particularly the joints. A layer of fat may be thought to hide odd conformational faults, but the horse is still overweight and so less able to work properly. I am sure that we have all seen horses in the show ring at a score of 4 or even approaching 5, but this is almost a cruelty issue – only a few weeks ago someone was prosecuted for keeping an obese pony
Few horses have the same condition score all over and she may be prone to holding on to the fat stores in her neck longer than elsewhere – my bum and tum are examples of that! When you condition score it is usual to judge the pelvis first then adjust by half a point according to the neck and back/ribs. Alternatively, score each of the three main areas (pelvis/rump, back/ribs and neck) individually, add the scores together and divide by 3 to get the final score.
If she is kept lean in the spring and summer then allowed free access to good grass then she is going to be taking full advantage of it by eating as much as she can when she can. Also be careful about letting her gain weight as summer passes – almost as many ponies and horses get laminitis in the autumn as they do in the spring as the sugar levels in grass rise then too.
My advice would be the same as given to Amanda above. Calculate her weight and restrict her diet to 1.75% of her current bodyweight as detailed above. When she comes in help her to last the night on a smaller amount of hay by feeding it in two small holed nets ne inside the other – she will also have to work harder to get the hay, making it more exercise for her problem neck!
Help her to lose the weight in her neck by making sure she remains on the bit when ridden (and not by pulling her head in, as then all you are doing is giving her something to lean on and you are carrying her head rather than her working to do it herself).
I am sure that you will find that, with the right diet and exercise, your pony’s neck will lose its crest – and you will have a healthier pony as a bonus.
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